One of the reasons Schwyzerduetsch use written High-German is that their own High-German dialects are themselves numerous and relatively diverse. As well as almost incomprehensible to standard German speakers. Rumansch speakers could theoretically have done the same as the Schwyzerduetsch by adopting Provencal as their written language.
Similarly Disney’s “Frozen 2” is a pretty good (although heavily woke) version of how Scandinavians suddenly had to sort out whether they were Swedes, Finns or Norwegians and what language they would speak when nationalism came in vogue in the 19th century.
The situation is much the same in Ireland. There are currently three main dialects of Irish, all pretty much mutually intelligible. When the government decided to promote the use of the language many years ago, they came up with an Caighdeán Oifigiúil ( the Official Standard) a form of the language neither spoken nor written by any Irishman, ever.
It doesn’t matter anyway, native speakers in Ireland are down to a few handfuls, and the government is busy settling foreigners throughout the few remaining areas where they live.
I wonder what dialect the Pennsylvania Dutch speak. They are said to have originated in Switzerland.
> I wonder what dialect the Pennsylvania Dutch speak. They are said to have originated in Switzerland.
As you might expect, their language is called "Pennsylvania Dutch". Wikipedia pegs it as a branch of Palatine German, having no connections whatsoever to Switzerland.
(Wikipedia also indicates that while some German settlers in the region came from Switzerland, they were not particularly numerically significant.)
Yep, nearly everything referred to as Dutch before the 20th century meant Deutsche. Oddly the dog we know as the great dane is called the deutsche dog in germany where it was developed from a dog called the english dog. The English called it a dane because they were anti german at the time.
The German Shepherd is called the Alsatian pretty much everywhere. Alsace, however, is now back in France, having been one of the proximate causes of the First World War.
Alsace wasn't the proximate cause. Germans already "had" it since 1870. In 1914, they wanted the Channel Litoral PLUS the French Atlantic Coast, so that they could compete with the British on naval terms. Completely crazy, but there you go... Anyway, they got their wish in WW2. Didn't make hay out of it though.
France wanted Alsace and Lorraine back. French revanchism is forgotten these days, but it’s the reason the very republican French jumped in bed with the most reactionary regime in Europe, that of the Czar.
My Palatinate German ancestor came to Bethlehem Penn. with the Moravians, who were both German and Czech. When SE PA became crowded, many moved south to NC and across the mountains.
Most of the Palatinate is Catholic, so Protestants were frequently not that welcome. Hence, they tended to go to the USA. Moravians were Protestant too.
Grok says Catholics were a growing minority in the 1700s, and a majority late in the century after the Catholic Elector annexed part of Bavaria. My former boss's Reformed ancestors left c.1718 after bad harvests.
Most of hostility to Protestants was coming down from the Catholic elite around the Elector, not so much from the locals. The guiding rule in Europe since the Reformation and the Westphalian Peace of 1648 was eius regio cuius religio. In other words - if someone holds the reins of power on some region, the inhabitants will feel the pressure to take the appropriate religion. Jews had kind of an exception to this rule as servants to the chamber, but in return they didn't have citizenship rights. So they could be thrown out at any given time.
IIRC Pennsylvania Dutch are from Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany. They "naturally" speak something called Mitteldeutsch - something in between Hochdeutsch and Platt(dutch).
the first of my ancestors to cross the Atlantic moved from Bern (northern Switzerland) to Pennsylvania in 1749, where he was prominent in that community including starting one of its first schools. Many distant cousins are among them to this day.
"So now there are six different dialects of Romansh. The original five plus the synthetic diatect". I find that so completely characteristic of humans.
Romansch is a descendant of Latin, just like Italian, Spanish, French, Romanian, etc. Nothing particularly "hillbilly" about it, other than perhaps the fact that it is spoken in Switzerland, a mountainous country. Those who speak it are by no means rubes.
If you look at written Romansh it looks almost but not entirely like Italian. From what I’ve heard there are enough differences in the spoken version that Italian speakers can understand it only to a limited extent.
When I listened to a YouTube video of people speaking Romansh, it sounded like they were speaking Italian with a German accent, but apparently not to Italians.
This is the sort of stiff-necked hyper-localism and parochialism that mystifies me. Adopting a common written language, especially if your spoken dialects are mutually intelligible, would seem to be an essential step in ensuring the language's survival. But, no, let the language die rather than give up your own private form of writing Romansh, and in the meantime screw those jerks on the other side of the hill who write it *wrong* ... insanity. It feels like the kind of thing people came to America to escape.
I'm reminded of the scene in Inglorious Basterds where the English spy claims to be from Piz Palu, where Romansh is the main language and the German spoken there is nearly unintelligible to Berliners. The Brit really blew it with that one.
OT, but there's an article in the Atlantic about the Old Neocons, which I know you commented on a while ago as having a quantitative focus and being somewhat ideologically separate from their later, immigration-obsessed ideological (and frequently literal) children.
One of the reasons Schwyzerduetsch use written High-German is that their own High-German dialects are themselves numerous and relatively diverse. As well as almost incomprehensible to standard German speakers. Rumansch speakers could theoretically have done the same as the Schwyzerduetsch by adopting Provencal as their written language.
Similarly Disney’s “Frozen 2” is a pretty good (although heavily woke) version of how Scandinavians suddenly had to sort out whether they were Swedes, Finns or Norwegians and what language they would speak when nationalism came in vogue in the 19th century.
Before 17th century, most spoke one or other form of Danish, and the aristocracy plus merchants spoke Plattduetsch.
The situation is much the same in Ireland. There are currently three main dialects of Irish, all pretty much mutually intelligible. When the government decided to promote the use of the language many years ago, they came up with an Caighdeán Oifigiúil ( the Official Standard) a form of the language neither spoken nor written by any Irishman, ever.
It doesn’t matter anyway, native speakers in Ireland are down to a few handfuls, and the government is busy settling foreigners throughout the few remaining areas where they live.
I wonder what dialect the Pennsylvania Dutch speak. They are said to have originated in Switzerland.
> I wonder what dialect the Pennsylvania Dutch speak. They are said to have originated in Switzerland.
As you might expect, their language is called "Pennsylvania Dutch". Wikipedia pegs it as a branch of Palatine German, having no connections whatsoever to Switzerland.
(Wikipedia also indicates that while some German settlers in the region came from Switzerland, they were not particularly numerically significant.)
Thanks, I have some for neighbors, always heard they came from Switzerland originally. Cheers
Yep, nearly everything referred to as Dutch before the 20th century meant Deutsche. Oddly the dog we know as the great dane is called the deutsche dog in germany where it was developed from a dog called the english dog. The English called it a dane because they were anti german at the time.
The German Shepherd is called the Alsatian pretty much everywhere. Alsace, however, is now back in France, having been one of the proximate causes of the First World War.
I thought Alsatian was an American thing because of anti German feeling from WWI
Yep. Alsatian has that francophone feel, lol. The dogs are ugly, aggressive brutes only useful for guarding sheep.
Alsace wasn't the proximate cause. Germans already "had" it since 1870. In 1914, they wanted the Channel Litoral PLUS the French Atlantic Coast, so that they could compete with the British on naval terms. Completely crazy, but there you go... Anyway, they got their wish in WW2. Didn't make hay out of it though.
France wanted Alsace and Lorraine back. French revanchism is forgotten these days, but it’s the reason the very republican French jumped in bed with the most reactionary regime in Europe, that of the Czar.
My Palatinate German ancestor came to Bethlehem Penn. with the Moravians, who were both German and Czech. When SE PA became crowded, many moved south to NC and across the mountains.
Most of the Palatinate is Catholic, so Protestants were frequently not that welcome. Hence, they tended to go to the USA. Moravians were Protestant too.
Grok says Catholics were a growing minority in the 1700s, and a majority late in the century after the Catholic Elector annexed part of Bavaria. My former boss's Reformed ancestors left c.1718 after bad harvests.
Most of hostility to Protestants was coming down from the Catholic elite around the Elector, not so much from the locals. The guiding rule in Europe since the Reformation and the Westphalian Peace of 1648 was eius regio cuius religio. In other words - if someone holds the reins of power on some region, the inhabitants will feel the pressure to take the appropriate religion. Jews had kind of an exception to this rule as servants to the chamber, but in return they didn't have citizenship rights. So they could be thrown out at any given time.
IIRC Pennsylvania Dutch are from Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany. They "naturally" speak something called Mitteldeutsch - something in between Hochdeutsch and Platt(dutch).
the first of my ancestors to cross the Atlantic moved from Bern (northern Switzerland) to Pennsylvania in 1749, where he was prominent in that community including starting one of its first schools. Many distant cousins are among them to this day.
"So now there are six different dialects of Romansh. The original five plus the synthetic diatect". I find that so completely characteristic of humans.
Pretty sure I remember an XKCD comic about this sort of thing in a corporation.
Apparently in the upper Midwest Somali is a new American dialect.
Romansch is a descendant of Latin, just like Italian, Spanish, French, Romanian, etc. Nothing particularly "hillbilly" about it, other than perhaps the fact that it is spoken in Switzerland, a mountainous country. Those who speak it are by no means rubes.
If you look at written Romansh it looks almost but not entirely like Italian. From what I’ve heard there are enough differences in the spoken version that Italian speakers can understand it only to a limited extent.
When I listened to a YouTube video of people speaking Romansh, it sounded like they were speaking Italian with a German accent, but apparently not to Italians.
Obligatory: https://xkcd.com/927/
Thanx
This is the sort of stiff-necked hyper-localism and parochialism that mystifies me. Adopting a common written language, especially if your spoken dialects are mutually intelligible, would seem to be an essential step in ensuring the language's survival. But, no, let the language die rather than give up your own private form of writing Romansh, and in the meantime screw those jerks on the other side of the hill who write it *wrong* ... insanity. It feels like the kind of thing people came to America to escape.
I'm reminded of the scene in Inglorious Basterds where the English spy claims to be from Piz Palu, where Romansh is the main language and the German spoken there is nearly unintelligible to Berliners. The Brit really blew it with that one.
OT, but there's an article in the Atlantic about the Old Neocons, which I know you commented on a while ago as having a quantitative focus and being somewhat ideologically separate from their later, immigration-obsessed ideological (and frequently literal) children.
https://archive.is/icRta