Good point. Both the Mexican and the US cultures are part of the European culture system. We're cultural relatives.
It's like our languages. Spanish and English are different, but related, languages. We all speak Indo-European. Somali culture (and language) is completely foreign to us and vice versa.
Yet the Iranian government is apparently more anti-Zionist than anti-Semitic, if they allow US resident Iranian Jews to vacation there. Or maybe they just want the tourist dollars.
My dad lived the 15 years before 2013 in the Watergate at Landmark high-rise condo complex in Alexandria, a cheaper and even uglier spinoff of the famous one. From my dog walks, it probably had the highest number of Jews and Muslims living on top of each other in the world. For several years before that, he had Iranian Jews across the street and Saudis next door. I can't remember how we knew that--we never met any of them or even saw their cars. The Saudis sold to a rich black couple from DC, who almost doubled the size of the already big house.
I know some Persian Armenians and they identify as such and don’t badmouth Iran. From what I understand, Iran likes its Armenians and treats them relatively well. Of course multi-ethnic states always treat some minorities better than others and Armenia doesn’t border Iran.
You listed religious minorities and then stated Iran isn’t tolerant. Implicit is the argument that Iran treats minorities, especially non- Shia non-Iranian poorly. It does but not all groups are treated the same and some may still feel an affinity for their homeland.
I’m not defending Irans persecution of minorities, just noting it’s not persecution of all minorities to the same extent. You refuse to acknowledge some minorities choose to stay in Iran or when they leave , still have fondness for their home country.
Israelis also leave Israel for the U.S. people move for political and personal reasons. Life in the US is much better so they moved. Those Armenians could have gone to Armenia too but chose the U.S. how do you explain that?
Steve, I am quite greatful for this insight into another of my favorite topical writers, David Cole. I never appreciated who the Persians he refers to are.
Well when Muslims treat others well there is usually a price to pay right? Why would you even mention this given the current context is about Israel and if it were peopled by an arab Sunni majority then they would wait for a better opporunity. They will kill or crush anyone who slightly breaks their rules. Strange way to voice sympathy. That is two times a Tucknuts for you now. Not good buddy. Not good at all.
As for immigrants they always follow each other. Detroit, Chicago, NY it is all on the same street.
The old Five Points in NYC. The English v Irish thing.
Historically Iranians are among the least antisemitic group in the middle east (although Kurds are also friendly). There were some nasty incidents in the past but fewer than in other middle eastern (or European) countries. The shah had excellent relations with Israel.
My Jewish IranIan friend's parents still live there as does her brother although the rest of her family is here. She goes back occasionally and does suffer some hassling but nothing too threatening.
By contrast, the Bahai were severely persecuted and many ended fleeing to Israel. Practicing Zoroastians are also treated harshly. Let's not forget they rewarded the communists who were instrumental in helping the revolution succeed by hanging them all. Ugh!
Probably would have been better if the Ayatollahs had not picked a fight with Israel but who knows how it will turn out. Probably not great for the Iranian people.
How ironic and utterly stupid to mistreat the few Zoroastrians remaining in Iran, given that Zoroastrianism (a) was invented there and (b) was the religion of the great Persian empires of pre-Islamic Persia, which is to say all the great Persian empires there have ever been.
Of course they’d be the target of mistreatment precisely for the reasons you listed. Zoroastrianism also have a profound impact on Judaism. I believe Judaism monotheistic around the time of their exposure to it while in ancient Persia.
This is also true in South American culture. I have an Ecuadorian female friend who tells me Ecuadorian women consider all Peruvian women to be whores and yet here on the East Coast their neighborhoods largely overlap.
That's funny. The only Peruvian woman I ever met, around 1999, was a waitress of limited English, about 40, in a place that served far-and-away San Francisco's best pizza, but did little business due to a severe parking shortage (the owner eventually moved back to Naples). A far more lucrative pizza place on a major boulevard just around the corner was owned by a friend of mine, whose unemployed 20-something nephew from Sicily came to visit for a few weeks. He managed to bed her.
We had an Ecuadorian dentist on the floor I had my business and he had two Peruvian dental hygienists. Both were very pretty and one was blonde. I am sure they were from the upper Middle-Class of Peru.
Interesting, definitely something I largely have not thought about other than the Eritreans and Ethiopians in DC. My spouse had a business near 9th and U, which had a very strong Ethiopian presence but Eritreans were around as well. Whatever their beef was, it seemed limited to verbally trashing the other to third parties given the chance, which was pretty minor compared to how native Washingtonians handle dislikes or slights.
My neighborhood had an Ethiopian coffee shop, and the owner was a good guy. He always had a stale pastry for my dog and clearly wanted to be considered an enterprising gentrifier as opposed to somehow related to the dominant neighborhood demographic, who he openly held in contempt.
Ethnics living in America don’t always like their own culture wholesale and admire some/many aspects of the U.S. they are glad to leave the bad stuff behind and take the good stuff they find here culturally.
My Persian (not Jewish boss) told me proudly that the only two countries in which Jews introduce themselves as people of the country before they refer to their Judaism are America and Iran. Later my Persian Jew boss told me proudly that while he acknowledged that Ashkenazi might be little smarter, Persian Jews had us licked for being conniving. I tried to explain to him, based on my experience in the Sailer comments section, that it;s not a thing to brag about.
Then thinking back, my Persian boss (a lady) boasted to me about how manipulative she was. Isn't the first law of manipulative club, don't talk about manipulative club?
The only other thing I have to contribute is that my martial arts coach is Bulgarian and when I told him my neighbor across the street was North Macedonian, he said he'd like to meet him since they are essentially the same people. I told my neighbor that and he laughed and said essentially "no we are fucking not".
That’s because Macedonians are Bulgarian adjacent but pretend they’re not. They are basically similar to Austria and Germany.
The only Jews I’ve ever met or know that identified themselves by their ethnicity first are Persian Jews. I had a middle school classmate that proudly and loudly stated she was Iranian. Her family were observant Jews too, not secular.
I am visiting Osaka and out shopping today noticed that the girl working at the counter wasn't Japanese. I asked where she was from and learned she was half Iranian and half Japanese.
I expressed my concerns for her family in Iran, but either she did't care or didn't know or didn't want to talk about it and she asked where I am from. I said California (although I haven't lived there in many decades) and her face lit up.
I asked why she was so excited to hear that, and she said it was just because it sounded so exotic.
I’m trying to figure-out how your theory interacts with the settlement of Somali asylum-seekers in Maine and Minnesota. Are they looking for white liberal NPR-listeners as neighbors to hate?
Those are cold liberal places. I think the refugee organizations also had a lot to do with placement and picking appropriate places, such as those with good services.
Don’t understand the beachhead effect. Some random Somalian ended up in Minnesota and then a few more came. When the time comes around to settle large amounts of people, there’s already a tiny community in one place so they pick that.
In Massachusetts for a very long time after the Irish settled there in the 19th Century, politics was a war between Yankee and Irish. The Irish were Catholic Democrats and the Yankees were Protestants of several varieties and Republican. The animosity between the two was real. The Yankees ran the state pretty much until 1930. A political stalemate was reached that lasted a couple of decades but the future was with the Irish Democrats. The Irish married couples were having five or six children and the Yankees two or three. Demographics matter. Irish Catholic John F. Kennedy changed Massachusetts in 1952 with his narrow victory over Yankee Henry Cabot Lodge in that year's Senate race. Kennedy by temperament was Yankee, a product of his wealthy father and Yankee elitist boarding schools. So the old Yankees slowly became Democrats while the Irish slowly became more Yankee in culture. They interbred to a large degree and Massachusetts has become largely a one-party Democratic state.
Seems like we would need to bring class into the discussion to widen the analysis. Would college educate elites be more prone to animosity or truck drivers? IMHO most forms of prejudice dissipate at the personal level when you see yourselves as equals.
Good point. Both the Mexican and the US cultures are part of the European culture system. We're cultural relatives.
It's like our languages. Spanish and English are different, but related, languages. We all speak Indo-European. Somali culture (and language) is completely foreign to us and vice versa.
Mexican culture has sole European culture but it’s more Meao-American than European.
Iranian Jews comprised some of the most fanatical pro Israel protesters at UCLA so their position is fairly easy to predict.
Yet the Iranian government is apparently more anti-Zionist than anti-Semitic, if they allow US resident Iranian Jews to vacation there. Or maybe they just want the tourist dollars.
My dad lived the 15 years before 2013 in the Watergate at Landmark high-rise condo complex in Alexandria, a cheaper and even uglier spinoff of the famous one. From my dog walks, it probably had the highest number of Jews and Muslims living on top of each other in the world. For several years before that, he had Iranian Jews across the street and Saudis next door. I can't remember how we knew that--we never met any of them or even saw their cars. The Saudis sold to a rich black couple from DC, who almost doubled the size of the already big house.
There are religious minorities in Iran (Jews, Zoroastrians and Christians—mostly ethnic Armenians).
But it’s not a tolerant place. For example, a Muslim cannot convert out of Islam, on pain of death. Jews must disavow Israel.
Bahai—a new religion of the 19th century—are descendants of Muslims. They’re scorned and badly treated.
But Iran is not that good for its Kurds either (Muslims but mostly Sunni, as opposed to the Shia Ayatollahs.)
I don’t know enough about it to say.
I’d expect that because of the eugenic effects of jizya. For 1000 years poor non-Muslims had to convert.
I know some Persian Armenians and they identify as such and don’t badmouth Iran. From what I understand, Iran likes its Armenians and treats them relatively well. Of course multi-ethnic states always treat some minorities better than others and Armenia doesn’t border Iran.
Presumably the Persian Armenians you know don’t live in Iran anymore. They voted with their feet.
Nor did I say that Iran treats them particularly badly. Read my comment carefully.
You listed religious minorities and then stated Iran isn’t tolerant. Implicit is the argument that Iran treats minorities, especially non- Shia non-Iranian poorly. It does but not all groups are treated the same and some may still feel an affinity for their homeland.
Iran isn’t tolerant in general. Women are forced to cover their hair, for example.
I only noted the Bahai as notably poorly treated.
Again I repeat: if your Persian Armenian friends are so enthused about Iran, why did they leave?
I’m not defending Irans persecution of minorities, just noting it’s not persecution of all minorities to the same extent. You refuse to acknowledge some minorities choose to stay in Iran or when they leave , still have fondness for their home country.
Israelis also leave Israel for the U.S. people move for political and personal reasons. Life in the US is much better so they moved. Those Armenians could have gone to Armenia too but chose the U.S. how do you explain that?
I’m done arguing with you. I did not say what you claim.
Steve, I am quite greatful for this insight into another of my favorite topical writers, David Cole. I never appreciated who the Persians he refers to are.
Jews and Iranians do get along. They mostly both hate the regime
Well when Muslims treat others well there is usually a price to pay right? Why would you even mention this given the current context is about Israel and if it were peopled by an arab Sunni majority then they would wait for a better opporunity. They will kill or crush anyone who slightly breaks their rules. Strange way to voice sympathy. That is two times a Tucknuts for you now. Not good buddy. Not good at all.
As for immigrants they always follow each other. Detroit, Chicago, NY it is all on the same street.
The old Five Points in NYC. The English v Irish thing.
Historically Iranians are among the least antisemitic group in the middle east (although Kurds are also friendly). There were some nasty incidents in the past but fewer than in other middle eastern (or European) countries. The shah had excellent relations with Israel.
My Jewish IranIan friend's parents still live there as does her brother although the rest of her family is here. She goes back occasionally and does suffer some hassling but nothing too threatening.
By contrast, the Bahai were severely persecuted and many ended fleeing to Israel. Practicing Zoroastians are also treated harshly. Let's not forget they rewarded the communists who were instrumental in helping the revolution succeed by hanging them all. Ugh!
Probably would have been better if the Ayatollahs had not picked a fight with Israel but who knows how it will turn out. Probably not great for the Iranian people.
How ironic and utterly stupid to mistreat the few Zoroastrians remaining in Iran, given that Zoroastrianism (a) was invented there and (b) was the religion of the great Persian empires of pre-Islamic Persia, which is to say all the great Persian empires there have ever been.
Thus spake Zarathustra.
Of course they’d be the target of mistreatment precisely for the reasons you listed. Zoroastrianism also have a profound impact on Judaism. I believe Judaism monotheistic around the time of their exposure to it while in ancient Persia.
The Parsis of India are dying out. Such a shame.
That’s interesting to hear that Zoroastrians aren’t treated well. Regarded as pagans, I suppose.
More like Pre-Islamic and the dominant faith at the time of Islamic conquest. It’s an interesting religion.
This is also true in South American culture. I have an Ecuadorian female friend who tells me Ecuadorian women consider all Peruvian women to be whores and yet here on the East Coast their neighborhoods largely overlap.
That's funny. The only Peruvian woman I ever met, around 1999, was a waitress of limited English, about 40, in a place that served far-and-away San Francisco's best pizza, but did little business due to a severe parking shortage (the owner eventually moved back to Naples). A far more lucrative pizza place on a major boulevard just around the corner was owned by a friend of mine, whose unemployed 20-something nephew from Sicily came to visit for a few weeks. He managed to bed her.
We had an Ecuadorian dentist on the floor I had my business and he had two Peruvian dental hygienists. Both were very pretty and one was blonde. I am sure they were from the upper Middle-Class of Peru.
Get with it Derek, we're looking for stories of Peruvian thots. Jeez.
Much of Joan Didion's 1980s book "Miami," as I recall, is about riots stemming from incomprehensible Latin American beefs
Didn’t Tony Montana hate Colombians for unstated reasons? Although I guess they were quickly made apparent in the chainsaw scene.
Interesting, definitely something I largely have not thought about other than the Eritreans and Ethiopians in DC. My spouse had a business near 9th and U, which had a very strong Ethiopian presence but Eritreans were around as well. Whatever their beef was, it seemed limited to verbally trashing the other to third parties given the chance, which was pretty minor compared to how native Washingtonians handle dislikes or slights.
My neighborhood had an Ethiopian coffee shop, and the owner was a good guy. He always had a stale pastry for my dog and clearly wanted to be considered an enterprising gentrifier as opposed to somehow related to the dominant neighborhood demographic, who he openly held in contempt.
I believe there are at least a half-dozen Ethiopian restaurants in DC. One was a customer until the 2020 shutdown closed me up.
Ethnics living in America don’t always like their own culture wholesale and admire some/many aspects of the U.S. they are glad to leave the bad stuff behind and take the good stuff they find here culturally.
My Persian (not Jewish boss) told me proudly that the only two countries in which Jews introduce themselves as people of the country before they refer to their Judaism are America and Iran. Later my Persian Jew boss told me proudly that while he acknowledged that Ashkenazi might be little smarter, Persian Jews had us licked for being conniving. I tried to explain to him, based on my experience in the Sailer comments section, that it;s not a thing to brag about.
Then thinking back, my Persian boss (a lady) boasted to me about how manipulative she was. Isn't the first law of manipulative club, don't talk about manipulative club?
The only other thing I have to contribute is that my martial arts coach is Bulgarian and when I told him my neighbor across the street was North Macedonian, he said he'd like to meet him since they are essentially the same people. I told my neighbor that and he laughed and said essentially "no we are fucking not".
That’s because Macedonians are Bulgarian adjacent but pretend they’re not. They are basically similar to Austria and Germany.
The only Jews I’ve ever met or know that identified themselves by their ethnicity first are Persian Jews. I had a middle school classmate that proudly and loudly stated she was Iranian. Her family were observant Jews too, not secular.
I am visiting Osaka and out shopping today noticed that the girl working at the counter wasn't Japanese. I asked where she was from and learned she was half Iranian and half Japanese.
I expressed my concerns for her family in Iran, but either she did't care or didn't know or didn't want to talk about it and she asked where I am from. I said California (although I haven't lived there in many decades) and her face lit up.
I asked why she was so excited to hear that, and she said it was just because it sounded so exotic.
The grass is always greener I guess...
Yu Darvish ...
Japanese seem to love America. Random US references everywhere you look.
Steve-
I’m trying to figure-out how your theory interacts with the settlement of Somali asylum-seekers in Maine and Minnesota. Are they looking for white liberal NPR-listeners as neighbors to hate?
Who wouldn’t?
Think they just hate hot weather.
I've been told by some that they choose the whitest states because they don't want to live anywhere near African Americans.
Those are cold liberal places. I think the refugee organizations also had a lot to do with placement and picking appropriate places, such as those with good services.
Don’t understand the beachhead effect. Some random Somalian ended up in Minnesota and then a few more came. When the time comes around to settle large amounts of people, there’s already a tiny community in one place so they pick that.
In Massachusetts for a very long time after the Irish settled there in the 19th Century, politics was a war between Yankee and Irish. The Irish were Catholic Democrats and the Yankees were Protestants of several varieties and Republican. The animosity between the two was real. The Yankees ran the state pretty much until 1930. A political stalemate was reached that lasted a couple of decades but the future was with the Irish Democrats. The Irish married couples were having five or six children and the Yankees two or three. Demographics matter. Irish Catholic John F. Kennedy changed Massachusetts in 1952 with his narrow victory over Yankee Henry Cabot Lodge in that year's Senate race. Kennedy by temperament was Yankee, a product of his wealthy father and Yankee elitist boarding schools. So the old Yankees slowly became Democrats while the Irish slowly became more Yankee in culture. They interbred to a large degree and Massachusetts has become largely a one-party Democratic state.
Seems like we would need to bring class into the discussion to widen the analysis. Would college educate elites be more prone to animosity or truck drivers? IMHO most forms of prejudice dissipate at the personal level when you see yourselves as equals.