This same question was bouncing around my brain today. Sure, female chimps are less aggressive than male chimps. Killer whales have distinct male and female behaviors, iirc, with the females being much larger and prone to bullying the males. I suppose these would qualify as cultures of masculinity and feminity.
Orcas? You must be thinking of some other animal. They don't have the largest sexual dimorphism, but males are still noticeably bigger. Especially their fins.
well a heifer in heat acts all frisky, and heifer on heifer action is somewhat amusing. but bovine state is more in the forfront. bovine maternalisim can get you killed.
In much of the animal world it’s the males that are wearing the beautiful plumage and strutting about showing off their maleness. Perhaps human femininity needs a Pride parade.
Notice that the St. Louis Cardinals have a male cardinal on their uniforms. Perhaps for Gay Awareness month, they could put the female cardinal on the uniform.
I've only had boy dogs, but I'm guessing yes. But that doesn't mean male-like behavior for dogs necessarily correlates to male-like behavior in humans. For example, if there were canine sociology professors and a girl dog started lifting her leg and peeing on fire hydrants, they would probably diagnose her with gender dysphoria and call her a transdog. But human men don't have any compulsion to pee on fire hydrants.
Of course, I think so highly of her that I didn't even realize I botched her first name; it's Lena. She has gotten much heavier* since Girls ended eight years ago. She also hasn't worked much since; she may the only woman who was MeTooëd after she admitted molesting her younger sister in her biography. In addition, she lost a Pokeman-point battle with Odell Beckham Jr and was forced to apologize to him after an awkward social interaction between them at the 2016 Met Gala.
There must be a lot of hardwiring in animal brains. How else would they know what's happening to them and what to do about it? The extended family isn't terribly useful except as guards. I guess we were in the same boat before language developed.
No, but the fact that the dogs in this area tend to be castrated at an early age didn't hurt. We considered breeding her, but my wife wasn't interested in the work involved.
Fighting dogs are male as far as I know. I mean you could get female dogs to fight but the enthusiasts fight males. The woman who runs the rescue I got my dog from was surprised when I told her how his temperament had worked out socializing with people and other dogs. Due to his size and breed she had been very careful with him. When I told her he was friendly and very tolerant of other dogs her response was that maybe she should reconsider her opinion on the breed which previously had been only based on females. She thought they were real bitches.
Thanks but I think he was already that way. I just discovered it slowly, cautiously. The real accomplishment was teaching him to walk on a leash. He was 5-7 years old and 180 pounds when I got him and he had never been walked (and has high prey drive so passing squirrel meant my face smashed into a stop sign).
The "femininity" is not in the dog herself but in the ways other dogs behave around girl dogs, I think.
I had a boy dog growing up and he would get in real, terrifying fights with other (male) dogs when he was young. We had to be careful about where to walk him until he mellowed out: expanses of field and forest where encounters were unlikely were best. Dog parks would have been impossible.
I have a girl dog now. We go to dog parks all the time. She is about 45 pounds to my childhood dog's 70 pounds, and she tries to be boss dog in every interaction that goes on for more than a minute or two -- but it NEVER turns into a fight. She can get away with scolding little nips that would have been the prelude to a snarling growling slavering dog tornado with my childhood dog.
Both wonderful dogs with people, but ... girl dog can get away with boss behavior around other dogs consequence-free that boy dog could not (nor did he expect to: if it came to it, he was ready to fight for real every time).
I am sure a pack of dogs would be as ready to tear a female as a male dog to shreds, but one on one other dogs seem to know you just don't fight female dogs, you only fight male dogs.
Female cats in my experience kill whatever is small and moves and are a disaster for neighborhood ecosystems. Male cats are interested in mutual staring contests and yowling one another down (even if neutered) but don't do much hunting.
> The males of lots of mammals (e.g., bulls and stallions) display masculine traits. But, other than maternal instincts, do female dogs have femininity? <
Interesting observation Steve.
But ... maternal instinct really is the gist of actual femininity. And the "masculine traits" you--and me too--find comparable are, of course, the male analogy. Male mammals have to be aggressive--willing to fight--in order to breed.
The super high level of nurturing required to raise human children has just accreted a whole lot of additional behavioral glop on top of these basics. Most critically a human female can not afford to just mate with whatever male is top of the heap at the moment, because she and her child will be much, much better off if the male is bringing in substantial provision.
So, especially in the civilized races, this has created more complex "femininity" and "masculinity" than just maternal instinct and aggression.
Of course, modernity, the pill, feminism and the welfare state have been changing the dynamic dramatically ... actually back toward something that looks a lot more like animal behavior, except that "femininity" without actual babies to "maternal instinct" upon is its own very, very weird--and destructive--thing.
I mainly agree with this, especially the part about human femininity and masculinity being very complex extrusions from their respective foundations. But I’d say femininity is, in the context of the animal kingdom, far stranger than human masculinity, and we understand that implicitly. The analog of calling a man an ape isn’t calling a woman a bitch or a shrew, it’s calling her a princess.
It’s interesting how femininity can be turned up or down “artificially” from a natural baseline, both in individuals and across groups. Arabs tend to turn it down and Hindus up. The French start from a very high baseline and have made turning it up to the exact optimum an art form.
In America, women turn it down with cheap calories and try to turn it back up by stuffing themselves into yoga pants.
Deliberately turning up feminine energy in a male strikes most people as weird, but if you have David Bowie level talent you can do that and be magnetic, not off-putting, and call yourself a bisexual while teenaged girls throw themselves at your alien alter ego.
I once stumbled into a small group of deer with a mighty, majestic buck, brimming with bold muscular and confident presence, intimidating though not menacing, and what seemed to be a young mother doe at his side, elegant, soft featured, graceful in movement, with kind eyes and an almost compassionate expression. King and Queen those two, noble masculine and noble feminine.
It gets weird in the insect world, where female traits include the post-insemination decapitation and consumption of the male (praying mantis).
Birds have a male/female dichotomy with echos of humans’. Males show off and provision and females protect the nest, taking turns as needed, of course. I think this is true in general. It’s also true that birds are fascinatingly diverse in behavior etc., but we joke about women nesting for a reason.
With non-human mammals, I think the general dichotomy is when the animal uses violence. Females when protecting their young, males for territory and access to females. Again, this is generalization.
As for dogs, my 3 year old female goldendoodle has the most insane love of roughhousing of any dog I’ve ever had, male or female. I swear she gets depressed if she doesn’t get to clobber me every day. She also burps very loudly. Ladylike, she ain’t.
But we’ve also joked that she’s a mother hen because she does seem to know when someone is sick. For example, when my son had Covid a couple years ago she laid outside his bedroom door continuously for days. Is that a female trait or a pack animal trait? Don’t know, but either way it’s endearing.
Our four year old purebred Golden Retriever bitch seems fully aware that she is beautiful, as her favorite thing in the world is to be groomed. She cares for her favorite doll toy assiduously and digs birthing dens in our garden. Cassie is 100% girl, and don't get me started on our American Shepherd dog who is all macho.
I never thought about this. I understand that dogs are polygamous and do not generally mate for life. Femininity would seem to have limited advantages for a girl dog in such a promiscuous sexual environment. Wild dogs presumably don't have much difficulty getting dates.
So, I'm gonna say no, dogs don't have much femininity.
This same question was bouncing around my brain today. Sure, female chimps are less aggressive than male chimps. Killer whales have distinct male and female behaviors, iirc, with the females being much larger and prone to bullying the males. I suppose these would qualify as cultures of masculinity and feminity.
But one also hears how dangerous a mother bear with cubs is.
Orcas? You must be thinking of some other animal. They don't have the largest sexual dimorphism, but males are still noticeably bigger. Especially their fins.
https://killerwhaleboyken.weebly.com/male-vs-female.html
well a heifer in heat acts all frisky, and heifer on heifer action is somewhat amusing. but bovine state is more in the forfront. bovine maternalisim can get you killed.
In much of the animal world it’s the males that are wearing the beautiful plumage and strutting about showing off their maleness. Perhaps human femininity needs a Pride parade.
Peacocks being an extreme example.
I would just like to say that it is my conviction That longer hair and other flamboyant affectations
Of appearance are nothing more Than the male's emergence from his drab camouflage
Into the gaudy plumage Which is the birthright of his assigned sex at birth
There is a peculiar notion that elegant plumage And fine feathers are not proper for the man
When actually That is the way things are In most species (Hair, the musical, updated)
> Perhaps human femininity needs a Pride parade.
It's called "social media."
Notice that the St. Louis Cardinals have a male cardinal on their uniforms. Perhaps for Gay Awareness month, they could put the female cardinal on the uniform.
Might be more fitting to the recent team. A bit colorless.
I've only had boy dogs, but I'm guessing yes. But that doesn't mean male-like behavior for dogs necessarily correlates to male-like behavior in humans. For example, if there were canine sociology professors and a girl dog started lifting her leg and peeing on fire hydrants, they would probably diagnose her with gender dysphoria and call her a transdog. But human men don't have any compulsion to pee on fire hydrants.
I would say cows are distinctly female, so much so that when I compare Leah Dunham to one, it has nothing to do with her size
Of course, I think so highly of her that I didn't even realize I botched her first name; it's Lena. She has gotten much heavier* since Girls ended eight years ago. She also hasn't worked much since; she may the only woman who was MeTooëd after she admitted molesting her younger sister in her biography. In addition, she lost a Pokeman-point battle with Odell Beckham Jr and was forced to apologize to him after an awkward social interaction between them at the 2016 Met Gala.
ScarletNumber regrets the error
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Dunham#/media/File:Lena_Dunham_at_Berlinale_2024.jpg
Might it be that human beings are not animals? Being made in the Image of God, etc.?
Maternal instincts are a HUGE deal in nature. Every animal species depends on it. But modern day female dogs are usually spayed. So it’s gone.
There must be a lot of hardwiring in animal brains. How else would they know what's happening to them and what to do about it? The extended family isn't terribly useful except as guards. I guess we were in the same boat before language developed.
I think so too.
I managed to prevent my wife from having our bitch spayed until she was three, which helps a lot with her femininity even today.
Did you put a ring through her septum to keep the boys away?
No, but the fact that the dogs in this area tend to be castrated at an early age didn't hurt. We considered breeding her, but my wife wasn't interested in the work involved.
Haha, no, but that's probably a sure fire tactic.
Boy dogs are more aggressive and more driven. It also comes out as more social.
Dogs really don’t imitate new behaviors the way we do, although they all point their noses at whatever the other dog points his nose at.
Fighting dogs are male as far as I know. I mean you could get female dogs to fight but the enthusiasts fight males. The woman who runs the rescue I got my dog from was surprised when I told her how his temperament had worked out socializing with people and other dogs. Due to his size and breed she had been very careful with him. When I told her he was friendly and very tolerant of other dogs her response was that maybe she should reconsider her opinion on the breed which previously had been only based on females. She thought they were real bitches.
I commend you for doing this. People don’t realize how much work it is to train a tough dog to get along with others.
Thanks but I think he was already that way. I just discovered it slowly, cautiously. The real accomplishment was teaching him to walk on a leash. He was 5-7 years old and 180 pounds when I got him and he had never been walked (and has high prey drive so passing squirrel meant my face smashed into a stop sign).
The "femininity" is not in the dog herself but in the ways other dogs behave around girl dogs, I think.
I had a boy dog growing up and he would get in real, terrifying fights with other (male) dogs when he was young. We had to be careful about where to walk him until he mellowed out: expanses of field and forest where encounters were unlikely were best. Dog parks would have been impossible.
I have a girl dog now. We go to dog parks all the time. She is about 45 pounds to my childhood dog's 70 pounds, and she tries to be boss dog in every interaction that goes on for more than a minute or two -- but it NEVER turns into a fight. She can get away with scolding little nips that would have been the prelude to a snarling growling slavering dog tornado with my childhood dog.
Both wonderful dogs with people, but ... girl dog can get away with boss behavior around other dogs consequence-free that boy dog could not (nor did he expect to: if it came to it, he was ready to fight for real every time).
I am sure a pack of dogs would be as ready to tear a female as a male dog to shreds, but one on one other dogs seem to know you just don't fight female dogs, you only fight male dogs.
When I think of animal femininity, I picture a lioness daintily ripping apart an antelope.
Female cats in my experience kill whatever is small and moves and are a disaster for neighborhood ecosystems. Male cats are interested in mutual staring contests and yowling one another down (even if neutered) but don't do much hunting.
What are you looking for here? I mean my dog never fixes anything around the house and shows no affinity for Rush. He likes killin' though.
> The males of lots of mammals (e.g., bulls and stallions) display masculine traits. But, other than maternal instincts, do female dogs have femininity? <
Interesting observation Steve.
But ... maternal instinct really is the gist of actual femininity. And the "masculine traits" you--and me too--find comparable are, of course, the male analogy. Male mammals have to be aggressive--willing to fight--in order to breed.
The super high level of nurturing required to raise human children has just accreted a whole lot of additional behavioral glop on top of these basics. Most critically a human female can not afford to just mate with whatever male is top of the heap at the moment, because she and her child will be much, much better off if the male is bringing in substantial provision.
So, especially in the civilized races, this has created more complex "femininity" and "masculinity" than just maternal instinct and aggression.
Of course, modernity, the pill, feminism and the welfare state have been changing the dynamic dramatically ... actually back toward something that looks a lot more like animal behavior, except that "femininity" without actual babies to "maternal instinct" upon is its own very, very weird--and destructive--thing.
I mainly agree with this, especially the part about human femininity and masculinity being very complex extrusions from their respective foundations. But I’d say femininity is, in the context of the animal kingdom, far stranger than human masculinity, and we understand that implicitly. The analog of calling a man an ape isn’t calling a woman a bitch or a shrew, it’s calling her a princess.
It’s interesting how femininity can be turned up or down “artificially” from a natural baseline, both in individuals and across groups. Arabs tend to turn it down and Hindus up. The French start from a very high baseline and have made turning it up to the exact optimum an art form.
In America, women turn it down with cheap calories and try to turn it back up by stuffing themselves into yoga pants.
Deliberately turning up feminine energy in a male strikes most people as weird, but if you have David Bowie level talent you can do that and be magnetic, not off-putting, and call yourself a bisexual while teenaged girls throw themselves at your alien alter ego.
I once stumbled into a small group of deer with a mighty, majestic buck, brimming with bold muscular and confident presence, intimidating though not menacing, and what seemed to be a young mother doe at his side, elegant, soft featured, graceful in movement, with kind eyes and an almost compassionate expression. King and Queen those two, noble masculine and noble feminine.
It gets weird in the insect world, where female traits include the post-insemination decapitation and consumption of the male (praying mantis).
Birds have a male/female dichotomy with echos of humans’. Males show off and provision and females protect the nest, taking turns as needed, of course. I think this is true in general. It’s also true that birds are fascinatingly diverse in behavior etc., but we joke about women nesting for a reason.
With non-human mammals, I think the general dichotomy is when the animal uses violence. Females when protecting their young, males for territory and access to females. Again, this is generalization.
As for dogs, my 3 year old female goldendoodle has the most insane love of roughhousing of any dog I’ve ever had, male or female. I swear she gets depressed if she doesn’t get to clobber me every day. She also burps very loudly. Ladylike, she ain’t.
But we’ve also joked that she’s a mother hen because she does seem to know when someone is sick. For example, when my son had Covid a couple years ago she laid outside his bedroom door continuously for days. Is that a female trait or a pack animal trait? Don’t know, but either way it’s endearing.
Our four year old purebred Golden Retriever bitch seems fully aware that she is beautiful, as her favorite thing in the world is to be groomed. She cares for her favorite doll toy assiduously and digs birthing dens in our garden. Cassie is 100% girl, and don't get me started on our American Shepherd dog who is all macho.
I never thought about this. I understand that dogs are polygamous and do not generally mate for life. Femininity would seem to have limited advantages for a girl dog in such a promiscuous sexual environment. Wild dogs presumably don't have much difficulty getting dates.
So, I'm gonna say no, dogs don't have much femininity.
Just like the males, some female dogs can be aggressive as hell towards both humans and other dogs.