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Brettbaker's avatar

You can overcome Nuture, but not Nature.

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Craig in Maine's avatar

I think you have to be a patient of several chiropractors to get your oxycodone Rx in West Virginia. Much time spent waiting patiently in queues at the drugstore.

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barnabus's avatar

Yep, but it's amazing that nothing like that is in the deep Ole South. Maine of course comes out as very, very patient. I guess you need that if you go fishing.

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Kelly Harbeson's avatar

I wonder how much retirees from Eastern Seaboard states have skewed Florida towards impatience?

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barnabus's avatar

Maybe, but then there all those Cubans in Florida too.

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The Anti-Gnostic's avatar

More like Latinos and Afro-Caribbeans in Orlando, Tampa, Miami and Jacksonville.

If Florida became a country, it would be like Yugoslavia, and the civil war would start 5 days later.

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Kelly Harbeson's avatar

Civil war in Florida would not be like the former Yugoslavia. It would be regional. Florida above the Gainesville-Daytona corridor vs Florida south of it. Natives against newcomers.

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The Anti-Gnostic's avatar

Huge differences between areas in south Florida with sharp ethnic and ideological divides.

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Kelly Harbeson's avatar

The blacks and the beans don't get along any better here than anywhere else.

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Derek Leaberry's avatar

Yes. There's nothing like fishing on an isolated lake or pond in Maine.

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Craig Carpenter II's avatar

Hello Craig in Maine, I’m Craig in West Virginia! I’m not surprised by our patience stat given how slow life is here. The addicts are the least patient people here.

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Craig in Maine's avatar

Yes, of course you are right. I was trying, but failing, to be clever.

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barnabus's avatar

Just like the US, different parts of Italy were settled by different amalgamation of subraces: Oop Norrth, it's not just Italians, but also a Germanic component - Lombardy is derived from Langobards who settled there. In the South Italy and Sicily, lots of settlers were Canaanites (Phoenicians), Greeks, other Levantines and even Arabs. Different temperaments.

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Marian Kechlibar's avatar

I was just on a vacation in Italy and the natives around lake Como definitely look Germanic. Pale, blonder than the average Czech.

It is similar in the Asturias in the north of Spain, once the last refuge of the Visigoths.

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MamaBear's avatar

Don't tell the Sicilians, whose skin tone tends to be darker than the rest of Italy, that they have Arabic ancestry. Their cuisine and language were both was influenced by the Muslims Arabs. Pistachios and oranges, which many associate with Sicily, are of ME origin.

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Derek Leaberry's avatar

Arabic and a little bit of Norman. In "A Bell For Adano", Gene Tierney plays a blonde Sicilian woman. It's a fine film.

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Tina Trent's avatar

I'm triply screwed. Sicilian heritage, born in New York, lived for decades in Georgia.

Sicilians use their shouting; New Yorkers use their car horns, and Georgians do 100 mph in heavy traffic on the freeways. And never use their horns. Or turn signals.

I'll take the shouting.

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Easton, M.D. M.A.'s avatar

It’s not Arabic ancestry, but Eastern Mediterranean from the Classical period. These studies exist, stop speaking ignorantly.

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MamaBear's avatar

By Eastern Mediterranean you mean Anatolia and the Levant.

Sicilians have some Arab/MENA ancestry. It's not an insult.

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Easton, M.D. M.A.'s avatar

Yes but the Arab is tiny compared to other MENA. Yes to me it’s all dirty low IQ mud DNA, which is why Sicilians are dumb.

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Easton, M.D. M.A.'s avatar

The majority of the genetic divergence comes from Imperial era dysgenic migration from the Mid East which lowered Roman IQ and caused its collapse. These genetic studies exist, stop listing ethnicities without numbers because you haven’t bothered to read these studies.

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barnabus's avatar

Since you mentioned these studies on IQ degradation due to dysgeneic migration, please go on and cite them! Where they published in peer-review journals? Just asking...

Just to put in a word in edgewise: the inventors of the first ever consonant script suffered from low IQ? Probably because they didn't use hieroglyphs like everyone else around them?

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Kelly Harbeson's avatar

I found the purported distribution of mythological ideas particularly interesting as it offers some insight into what humanity might have been doing in the Younger Dryas and before. I am convinced that some sort of proto-civilization, possibly maritime was destroyed by the aftereffects of the Younger Dryas Impact. We don't really know who built the Pyramids, the Sphinx or Gobeleki Tepe but it seems obvious that they had a technological sophistication that was lost.

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barnabus's avatar

We definitely need complete DNA readout of the human biological material buried in the pyramids - Maybe Donald should offer Al-Sisi 500 Mio$ for that *smile*

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Derek Leaberry's avatar

We West Virginians believe that if you are in Almost Heaven, there's really no reason to move anywhere else.

More to the point, West Virginia has a population a little older than average. West Virginians will chat for half-an-hour for no particular reason. You don't see that in New York City. If you're trying to get somewhere fast and get behind an eighteen-wheeler or a lumber truck going up a mountain, you're going to go slow for a while. Think of Uncle Joe on the old show "Petticoat Junction." "There's Uncle Joe, he's moving kinda slow." That the Mountaineer State.

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Derek Leaberry's avatar

My fellow usher at church is Sicilian. He's Sicilian first, Italian second and American third and he worked for the State Department. He calls northern Italians "the Germans." Northern Italy has a lot of Lombard DNA. The Lombards came into Italy after the Visigoths and were considered among the least civilized of the German tribes.

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Almost Missouri's avatar

> "He's Sicilian first, Italian second and American third and he worked for the State Department."

You might think that this sort of thing would occasion some self-reflection by the State Department's recruiters. But no, quite the contrary...

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Derek Leaberry's avatar

He was useful in that he spoke fluent Spanish and Italian. He served in Guatemala and Spain and Italy. He also served in Norway but all Norwegians speak English.

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Easton, M.D. M.A.'s avatar

The majority of the genetic divergence comes from Imperial era dysgenic migration from the Mid East which lowered Roman IQ and caused its collapse. These genetic studies exist, stop listing ethnicities without numbers because you haven’t bothered to read these studies.

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The Anti-Gnostic's avatar

"The U.S. map mostly looks like the usual Diversity Map of the U.S."

As some wag on Marginal Revolution pointed out when an economist tries to prove for the umpteenth time that the drug trade causes violence, "hey look it's that map again."

It's always the same map, over and over.

I bet social scientists will get a lot less granular as AI ramps up and starts plowing through gazillion billion numbers. Obviously these researchers don't want to dial down to the municipal level with their thermal maps. ("Why is Illinois so impatient? Fascinating.") Only poor old West Virginia saves the methodology for politically correct social scientists.

States are actually terrible data sets; urban and rural are different planets. So are the Native reservations.

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Almost Missouri's avatar

Formerly, social scientists knew to race-norm their results so as not to end up with That Map Again, but I don't see this much anymore.

Was a codicil of the Great Awokening "Thou shalt not race-norm thy data"?

If so, like every other consequence of the wokeness, it has been a mistake.

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The Anti-Gnostic's avatar

That's a good term of art: That Map Again.

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jak99's avatar

Competence collapse. Selecting for diversity has resulted in journalism and academic and professional jobs getting filled by less smart, less skilled people, as I’m sure you know. Liberals these days are too stupid not to say the quiet parts out loud, because they don’t know any better, and they never learned the subtle tricks of shading and hiding the truth.

Case in point: Now liberals just admit they want open borders because they like using slave-wage labor to pick lettuce and clean houses. Clinton-era liberals knew enough to spin some squishy humanitarian fairy tale, but Karen Bass-types don’t even know enough to obfuscate their real intentions.

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Erik's avatar

I recall a map of Chicago from high school health class that showed how schizophrenia rates are much higher in urban areas and that the rate was higher in the center of the city. I learned as an adult that blacks have about twice the rate of schizophrenia as whites (though it is possible that it's over diagnosed--further though, it strikes me as unlikely given the symptoms, I mean if schizophrenic behavior and symptoms are within the normal distribution of your group culture we might have a different problem)

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The Anti-Gnostic's avatar

Being Offended strikes white liberals really hard.

Seriously, I think there are some definite trends on psychopathologies among ethnic and racial groups: NW Euros, depression and alcoholism, Ashkenazi Jews, neuroticism. I think Asians tend to get schizophrenic versus depressed too. I'd hypothesize that there is a high incidence of schizophrenia among blacks.

The Tory PR specialist on the Britbox House of Cards, "Roger O'Neil," was hilariously Irish: alcoholic, weepy, poetic monologues. Ren & Stimpy had an over-the-top Scottish character, Haggis McHaggis, who was always either insanely angry or sobbing uncontrollably.

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Comment-Tater's avatar

This just in: Hot weather causes impatience.

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MamaBear's avatar

It also causes laziness, because who wants to work when it's 100 degrees outside and humid.

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Easton, M.D. M.A.'s avatar

You’re subscribed to Steve Sailer yet still believe southern peoples aren’t dumber on average genetically, lol

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Elli's avatar

https://www.newsnationnow.com/science/study-dark-personality-psychopath-map-us/

People with so-called “dark” personalities — including psychopaths, narcissists and sadists — are more common in U.S. states with the most adverse conditions, new research found.

Researchers used World Bank data for worldwide corruption estimates, while the U.S. was formulated using Census Bureau data on inequality and poverty, Justice Department corruption convictions and FBI homicide rates.

Ingo Zettler, one of three researchers behind the study, told the University of Copenhagen that where these conditions were observed, people behaved accordingly.

It linked averse social conditions, including poverty, inequality and violence, with “The Dark Factor of Personality.”

Watch: Guest sits on ‘Van Gogh chair’ at Italy museum, breaking it

Researchers used World Bank data for worldwide corruption estimates, while the U.S. was formulated using Census Bureau data on inequality and poverty, Justice Department corruption convictions and FBI homicide rates.

Ingo Zettler, one of three researchers behind the study, told the University of Copenhagen that where these conditions were observed, people behaved accordingly.

“In societies where rules are broken without consequences and where the conditions for many citizens are bad, individuals perceive and learn that one should actually think of oneself first,” Zettler said.

Which states are most likely to have psychopaths, egoists?

Some of the standout states for “dark” personalities included:

Louisiana

Mississippi

Texas

Nevada

South Dakota

New York

The least were observed in:

Utah

Vermont

New Hampshire

Maine

Oregon

Alaska"

“In societies where rules are broken without consequences and where the conditions for many citizens are bad, individuals perceive and learn that one should actually think of oneself first,” Zettler said.

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Erik's avatar

That's a cool idea for a paper but (based only on the summary) I am skeptical of their methodology. There are a lot of factors that would determine corruption convictions rates besides prevalence of corruption and there are a lot of reasons for a society to be corrupt other than dark triad traits.

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The Anti-Gnostic's avatar

Look it's That Map Again.

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Charlotte's avatar

I have a strong suspicion that if the South Dakota data were examined at the county level, you’d see the various reservations impacting the state score.

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Erik's avatar

I remain extremely skeptical about PGS for intelligence and educational achievement. 11% of variance does not impress me. SNPs are not genes and people with different SNPs can have the same gene variant nearby. They are more about tracking gene fragments and linkage over generations. And the problem with using larger numbers of SNPs to arrive at only this small amount of prediction ability, is over-fitting.

In early style gene studies the goal was to find a gene with a strong association and then figure out what the gene coded for or controlled and then try to figure out how it fit into a broader (e.g. disease) process. If I have a gazillion SNPs to predict 11% of variation, what am I supposed to do with that? First you'd have to somehow go from SNP to genes and the reason you do SNPs in the first place is (I presume) that the gene sequencing at this scale would still be cost prohibitive.

This might all lead to something but for the time being I'd say it shows that genetics contributes minorly to intelligence (and I still think it's higher, closer to 50%) and that we are unlikely to find big intelligence genes any time soon if ever.

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AnotherDad's avatar

> But is rootin’-tootin’ West Virginia really one of the top six most patient states in the U.S.?

Maybe West Virginians are patient in the sense that they haven’t gotten the hell out of West Virginia yet? <

I think you're on to a key--2nd order--factor there. The first order is pretty obvious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_African-American_population#2020_census_(single_race)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Hispanic_and_Latino_population#2000%E2%80%9320_US_Census_resultsith

But I note that Georgia is notably less patient than Mississippi which has the largest black % share. Georgia, of course, has dramatically boomed as Atlanta became a top ten US metro blob sucking in people from all over. It is far more urban and go-getter than Mississippi. As is Maryland with a similar black share to Georgia's (33%) and similar low patience.

At the other end, I noted that my family heimat Iowa bests its neighbors with very similar Germanic skewing white populations--Minnesota and Wisconsin. Iowa has a couple of points lower black% (5** vs. 7) but is notably less urban and big city and more patient.

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AnotherDad's avatar

BTW, that 5% black for Iowa is a shameful crime. When I was a kid Iowa was a blissful <1% black. Iowa has ramped down from whitetopia to ho-hum in just the last couple of decades. In part that's just because of immigration and fertility--i.e. attached to America. But its soaring black share is largely the result of intentionally malicious policy like Obama's AFFH ("Affirmative Furthering Fair Housing") to Section 8 some urban blacks out of places like Chicago to attack surrounding whitetopias.

Minoritarianism is just a really nasty ideology. The core of it is simply that white gentiles are not entitled to their own stuff. When someone demands that *you* must be "open" and give others access to your stuff--be it country clubs or universities or neighborhoods or nations--that is not about "freedom"--about the right to your own labor, the right to control your destiny. No, it's about looting--the right to other people's stuff. "You must let me in!" is the ideology of the rapist.

Minoritarianism is at root ideological hostility to white gentiles--to our normality and civilization.

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Derek Leaberry's avatar

Cities like Davenport and Dubuque stupidly have Section 8 housing. I wonder if they like it when Juwann the aspiring rapper from Chicago knocks up their naive daughter.

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The Anti-Gnostic's avatar

They'll just hold a press conference and talk about how blacks make delicious fried chicken.

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Derek Leaberry's avatar

They make the city more vibrant, more diverse.

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ScarletNumber's avatar

It is worth noting that New Jersey and New York are full of southern Italians and in both maps those regions are in the lowest decile

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MamaBear's avatar

The increased scores of southern Italians may be offset but decreased scores of others.

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Easton, M.D. M.A.'s avatar

They are both hyper-diverse in 2025. Sicilians are a plurality of a minority; the main reason they’re bottom decile is non-whites. But yeah, Italian Americans are among the dumbest Whites in America, contributing nothing significant in the USA outside two directors.

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Approved Posture's avatar

I know Italy quite well and it’s an old joke there that every social science map of Italy looks the same. Something like Moynihan’s Law of Proximity to the the Swiss Border.

The North is expensive and stuffy while the south is cheap and relaxed. I find public cleanliness a highly reliable indicator of societal capacity. In that regard going from Naples to Rome to Florence in one day (which you can with high-speed rail) will make you feel like you have seen three different countries. From lots of trash to almost none. Things like seat-belt wearing habits change drastically too.

So there is some latent ur-variable that explains 100% of the variance in every spatial outcome in Italy. Maybe AI will crack it!

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Peter Frost's avatar

PGS scores are a poor instrument for measuring the intelligence of any one individual, but they are very good for measuring the average intelligence of a population (or rather its average capacity for intelligence). The correlation is 90% between mean population IQ and mean PGS for educational attainment. That's a high figure, given that educational attainment is an imperfect measure of intelligence.

To estimate mean IQ , you don't have to measure the PGS score of every single member of a population. Or even a majority. All you need is a representative sample, which can be as little as 30 individuals.

It's like estimating the proportions of red and green jellybeans in a jar. An estimate is impossible if you take out a single jellybean. But if you scoop out a large enough number, a decent estimate becomes possible.

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Philip Neal's avatar

I think the point of the Plomin group's paper is that nurture is in part a phenotypical expression of parental genomes. Perhaps there is more to be said for legacy admissions than people think.

Razib Khan's latest (subscriber only) post concerns an analysis of a set of whole genomes released by four generations of a white American family. I am still digesting it and other people here will understand it better than I do, but it reveals patterns of inheritance involving new mutations and recombination of old ones which make a difference between inheritance in the male and female lines. Worth the subscription.

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Chicago Phil's avatar

Rushton is proven right every day. Northern peoples evolved to deal with a harsh climate.

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Easton, M.D. M.A.'s avatar

Doesn’t explain everything

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